Episode 3: Drag

• If You’re a Drag Queen and You Know It children's book
• The Hips on the Drag Queen Go Swish, Swish, Swish children's book
• Pop & Play, Season 2, Episode 1:  Role Playing Games with Matthew Berland and Antero Garcia
• Pop & Play, Season 2, Episode 4: He-Man and Pop Culture Representation with Anne Haas Dyson

Nathan:

Welcome to Pop and Play, the podcast all about play and its frivolous, joyful, serious and also powerful forms. This podcast is hosted by myself, Nathan Holbert.

Haeny:

And me, Haeny Yoon. We're two education researchers that care a lot about play. Each week, we chat with other scholars, artists, activists, parents and children about the significance and value of play in their lives.

Nathan:

And in this season, we've been exploring what it means to play roles. What is it, why do we do it and what's so fun about it?

Haeny:

This week, we're tackling the ultimate role playing, drag. Drag is all about play, playing with gender expressions, playing with fashion, playing with identity. Drag is performance, it's exaggeration, it's transgressive and it's a lot of fun. This week, we're talking to Lil Miss Hot Mess, a drag performer, academic and author of two children's books, The Hips on the Drag Queen Go Swish, Swish, Swish and If You're a Drag Queen and You Know It. They also have an article on our Play and Wellbeing website, playandwellbeing.org, if you want to check it out, entitled A Giant Mashed Up Ball of Play-Doh, A Conversation of Queer Play with Collie and also good friend Harper Keenan.

Nathan:

Check it out.

Haeny:

Check it out.

Nathan:

It's on the worldwide web.

Haeny:

Yes. Playandwellbeing.org. Hashtag check it out.

Nathan:

So, why are we having this conversation? What is it about drag that we wanted to bring into this season's conversation about playing roles? Haeny, maybe you can start by telling us a little bit about your own experiences with drag.

Haeny:

Well, currently, I am a drag super fan, Drag Race super fan. That's what they call the fans of Drag Race, super fans.

Nathan:

Sure.

Haeny:

So, I actually have a lot of experience on my couch and Paramount Plus with Drag Race.

Nathan:

All those drag performances on your couch.

Haeny:

Yes, exactly, exactly. But okay. So, I think we have to have an honest conversation about our own experiences with drag-

Nathan:

Sure, let's do it.

Haeny:

... and we don't have a lot of it, growing up at least, and we've talked about this before, I think, on the pod. I grew up in a very religious, conservative, very there's a lot of rules in my house context and a lot of those rules had to do with the Bible and Jesus watching me all the time.

Nathan:

Oh, my.

Haeny:

And so, I feel like there were a lot of rules. And so, I think there was some things out in the world that I very much enjoy now that I thought were scary and dangerous. I thought rock music was scary and dangerous because, if you play them backwards, Satan's going to speak to you.

Nathan:

Have you seen those haircuts?

Haeny:

And then I also thought and I felt like, a lot of times, when I look back on it, I was scared of things that I just didn't understand. And I felt like drag, for me, was a very simplistic thing, it was like, "Oh, it's men dressing up like women," which is, I think, far from what drag is and I didn't understand it and so it was scary to me because I had very traditional gender roles in my house, traditional rules and things like that. Later on, I've come to realize that breaking the rules is actually fun, right? Yeah, but what about you?

Nathan:

Yeah. So, for me, I don't have a lot of experiences with it and, similar to you, I certainly didn't have those experiences when I was growing up so any that I have had been more recent. I think, having grown up in Missouri, in Kansas, in the Midwest in the '80s-

Haeny:

We love the Midwest, by the way. Don't sue us, Midwest.

Nathan:

Shout out to the Midwest. I was thinking about this, drag was portrayed in most media as a joke, a punchline to some joke and it was either ... Sometimes it was this person is dangerous, how do you know they're dangerous? Well, they're in drag. Or other times it was this person is silly and perhaps not serious, how do you know that? Because they're in drag. It was always a shorthand for giving some character some possibly negative quality. And so, I think, growing up, my sense of it was built entirely from that that it wasn't something that was really real in the real world or, if it was, it wasn't something that is good or playful or fun, it was, somehow or another, dangerous or silly.

So, yeah, I definitely didn't have a positive sense of it when I was younger and I just don't think I was exposed to it all. Believe it or not, in the middle of Southern Missouri, there just wasn't a lot of drag shows that I was aware of.

Haeny:

What?

Nathan:

Maybe there happening everywhere. But certainly, not until I was older that I even encounter it and see it and then realize that like, "Oh, this is just people having a great time." Now, that said, I am not a RuPaul scholar like you are and my experience with Drag Race is extremely limited, my experience encountering or going to drag shows is pretty much non-existent and so I also feel, while I've never necessarily had heavy negative feelings towards drag, I certainly feel like a complete idiot when it comes to it. And so, I know, in our conversations, I've occasionally asked you a question and be like, "Look, I know I sound like I'm out of the 1950s but explain this to me," so I do feel very ... I'm constantly learning new things about what it is whenever I'm now getting exposed to it.

Haeny:

Yeah. I think about why is it that I really, really wanted to have a conversation with Lil Miss Hot Mess in one of our episodes where we're talking about role, playing roles and identity. And I think we've said this so many times in every season of our podcast that play is frivolous and joyful but that's always also-

Nathan:

Said it in the intro.

Haeny:

Yes. Also serious and intellectual and work, right?

Nathan:

Yup.

Haeny:

Not work in the sense that we know it but it takes work, it takes planning, it takes some ideas, it takes some risk, it takes all of these things that should put it together. And I think, over the past few years being a Drag Race super fan, is you start to realize, when you actually get to observe and watch people play in their craft and in their art, that you start to realize that the things that they do and the practices that goes into doing something is really serious and it takes a lot of effort and energy. And so, I think that's why we want to have them on here.

Nathan:

Yeah, getting another angle at this ways in which people play roles and what that play looks like, how you put yourself into that play, what you get out of that play. And another theme that we've certainly encountered this season that I think is certainly part of this conversation is the ways in which this kind of play is both built around and within communities and also the ways in which it is danger. It is, as you said, putting yourself out there and trying something and seeing how others respond to it. I think that's all something I'm really excited to hear Lil Hot Mess talk about.

Haeny:

Mm-hmm. I think this episode too is really important because we live in a current political climate that makes it very hard for certain people to actually enact play.

Nathan:

Yeah, yeah.

Haeny:

And I definitely think drag performers are always in the hot seat in a political climate right now that is still stuck in the 1950s.

Nathan:

Yeah. Yeah, right.

Haeny:

That has the view that seven-year-old Haeny and Nathan might've had where we're like, "These drag people are just jokes and they're silly and they're not to be taken seriously." And I think some of that, I would venture to say, has to do with the lack of curiosity and understanding of it.

Nathan:

Totally. And I use the word ignorance but also just the fear of the things you don't know and the things that you don't understand. And rather than being willing to try to understand it or to try to get a different sense of it, just acting on that ignorance.

Haeny:

Right, exactly. You don't have to like it.

Nathan:

Sure.

Haeny:

I don't have to always Star Wars but-

Nathan:

Hey.

Haeny:

But if ...

Nathan:

Well, actually, in this society you do have to Star Wars.

Haeny:

Okay, anyway. But it's not that you don't have to like it, not everybody has to agree, not everybody has to like the same things, not everybody has to appreciate the same kind of art but I think it's understanding the art form that is probably important.

Nathan:

Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited to hear more.

Haeny:

Yeah. Today we have with us, and I'm very excited, Lil Miss Hot Mess. She's a visual performance artist, assistant professor, drag queen and a founding member of Drag Story Hour. And she has two books out, The Hips on the Drag Queen Go Swish, Swish, Swish and If You are a Drag Queen and You Know It, two children's books that are delightful if you haven't checked them out.

Nathan:

Very exciting.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Thank you so much.

Haeny:

Yeah.

Nathan:

We like to usually start out these conversations though a little easy and that is by playing a game to get into the spirit of the conversation. Does that sound okay?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Wonderful, I'm so excited.

Nathan:

So, we came up with a game that's all about drag names.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Ooh.

Nathan:

Now, for those who may not know that are listening, and I certainly would have counted myself in this category of people before I did a little researching here, drag names are playful ways of expressing a persona, they often involve puns and jokes and they, not only depend upon the performer, but also the context in which the performance might be taking place in. So, in this game, what I'm going to try to do is give you a context and a performance task and your task will be to give us a drag name that might work with it. And-

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Oh, wow. You're putting me on the spot here.

Nathan:

I am. Which we recognize and we were playing this game that it was a bit of an ask and so, to make it a little bit easier, I'm also going to ask Haeny to do this too.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yes, okay.

Nathan:

I'll put Haeny on the spot.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Level the playing field.

Nathan:

I'll try to also make it easier. I think one thing we'll try to do is give you some rules that you could use to construct the name if you'd like as well.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Great, great, great.

Nathan:

But as a pro, feel free to go hog wild. All right, so our first category that we're going to play with here is that you have been invited to be in Biden's Cabinet, all right, and your job is to come up with the drag name. And here's my suggested rules, you have to combine an adjective, the name of a president and an ice cream flavor.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Ooh, okay.

Nathan:

To give you a second to think-

Haeny:

Do we have a second to think? Okay.

Nathan:

To give you a second to think, I'm going to have Haeny tell us what she's come up with. Haeny, you've been invited to Biden's Cabinet, what's your drag name?

Haeny:

Loud Taft Strawberry.

Nathan:

Does that work?

Haeny:

I'm going to rearrange that, I'm going to at least say it's Loud Strawberry Taft.

Nathan:

Oh, that's better, that's better.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

I was going to say Tasty Coolidge Vanilla. But I think I'm stuck on Biden a little bit, I almost said old but I don't want to go there.

Haeny:

Oh, that's a good one. Okay.

Nathan:

That's a good one, that's a good one.

Haeny:

I said Salty Carter Orange Sherbet. No, I feel like Lil Miss Hot Mess had another one.

Nathan:

Oh.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Well, how family friendly is this podcast again?

Haeny:

Oh, we're go off the rails.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

I was just going to say, this isn't really Biden administration, this is more other branches of government but I also just thought Tasty Twinkie just pulling in the news of late.

Nathan:

Just go straight in, yeah.

Haeny:

Oh, that's awesome.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Or Tasty Twinkerbell maybe we could say if we want to go…

Haeny:

Oh, my God, I love it.

Nathan:

Oh, that's good. That's good, yeah.

Haeny:

Tasty, that is such a good adjective.

Nathan:

That's a good one.

Haeny:

Yeah, okay.

Nathan:

That's a good one. All right, how about this one? Now that we've stretched this muscle, Madonna has invited you to be a backup singer on the new tour. And so, we're going to suggest your name is a combination of a spice, the phrase Bob of house and then a fantastical creature.

Haeny:

Okay. I'm going to go with Cardamom Bob of House Medusa.

Nathan:

Okay. I'm going to be Bolognese Bob of House Basilisk.

Haeny:

Bolognese?

Nathan:

That's not a spice but it's a good word.

Haeny:

Oh, I feel like someone should choose star anise.

Nathan:

Star anise.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Ooh, that's basically a drag name. All right, I don't know ... We might need to re-record this because I don't know if I'm going to say the name of the spice correctly but I'm going to say Berbere Bob Baba Yaga.

Haeny:

Wow.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

It's an Ethiopian spice blend. I've eaten it but I've never pronounced it.

Haeny:

Oh, yes, I've eaten that too.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yes, yes.

Haeny:

I've eaten that too.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

I was looking for a good B.

Haeny:

This is a lesson for us that you don't mess with pros.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

It's all in good fun, it's all in good.

Haeny:

Yeah. I feel like this is a good transition because you came on the recording and told us that you just got back from drag or just did drag last night. And so, maybe starting with that, I'm just curious, how did you get into it? What was your start into the performance of drag?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Well, I've been doing drag for over 15 years now which is wild to say, it's, at this point in my life, probably the thing that I've done most consistently for that length of time. And I would also say, in some ways, I've always wanted to do drag even before I knew the term or the concept or anything like that. I was always a performative and somewhat flamboyant child and I love to dress up and play pretend and prototypical queer kid who, every now and then, would throw a towel over my head or put on one of my mom's pieces of clothing or her high heels and parade around and feel my fabulosity.

So, that's the early version and, in high school, I did some theater and I, at one point, auditioned for a Midsummer Night's Dream and the only part that I wanted was the drag part in the play within the play. And that was my first time really trying it out because we had to, not only audition with a monologue, but also, for that production, we were using movements so I had to audition with a dance.

Nathan:

Yeah, wow.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

And I came up, yeah, with this early drag routine where I performed to Dude Looks Like a Lady-

Haeny:

Oh, that's awesome. Okay.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

... and then transitioned into Time After Time-

Haeny:

Another classic.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

... and I did it on rollerblades.

Nathan:

Wow.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

And, yeah. So, I did this figure skating routine and, yeah, I think really tore it up. But it wasn't until my early 20s, after college and some more dabbling there that I moved to San Francisco and started seeing real life drag shows and instantly knew I wanted to be part of it. And so, I asked around and there happened to be this show for newcomers coming up called Star Search and I put my name up and-

Haeny:

Star Search the actual show?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

A drag version of Star Search.

Haeny:

A drag ... Oh, my gosh, that's cool.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yeah, like a please don't sue us for using your name version of Star Search, yeah.

Nathan:

Starm Search, what?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Right. There was no pretense of really hiding it, it was a cute little homage and, yeah. And actually, that, there's a theme here, that very first number that I did was also on ice skates in the club.

Nathan:

Oh, wow.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

So, there was an element of that past of mine as well.

Haeny:

Wow, that's pretty cool.

Nathan:

That's awesome.

Haeny:

I'm thinking about how performers and artists, sometimes some of them decide to do all the things but some of them have a direction or a genre that they always want to go into. So, I'm wondering what made you gravitate towards drag? Because I hear you and I think about how there's so many different directions you could have gone, right? You could have done musical theater, you could have done acting because it sounds like you were really interested in acting, you could have gone into fashion or you could have ... Drag is another genre that you could do. So, what is it about drag that was compelling to you or different from those other art forms?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

That's such a great and insightful question. I think, in some ways, and I think a lot of this was intuitive, it wasn't something that I was really thinking about or plotting out, but I think part of it at the time for me was getting to combine so many different art forms, thinking about the performance and the musicality and the fashion and visuals of it and, to an extent, the narrative of constructing a number and all these sorts of things. And I think part of it too was the community aspect of it, of having this, yeah, built-in community that really grows to understand you as a performer especially at the time. It wasn't like a small community per se but it was an intimate community and, even when people were coming in and coming out, there was this sense of familiarity.

And I think maybe in hindsight too, one of the things that I've realized that I really like about drag is that it is quick and it is playful and it can be a little bit messy and it's not about perfection, it's not about building some masterpiece. It really is about constructing something usually in the space of three to five minutes and then often never doing that number again. And yeah, and watching other people doing it and then taking your turn and then jumping back into the audience and, yeah, it just being this cycle and hustle at the same time.

Haeny:

Yeah. Being a Drag Race super fan, I will say, the thing ... I think I've said this to Nathan so many times, it is so hard to try to be a drag queen, there are so many things that you have to know how to do. I'm like, "Is it fair that you have to know how to sew something but then you have to know how to be comedic but then you have to know how to act and then you have to know how to dance and then you have to know how to sing and you have to do all of these different things? No, that is not for the faint of heart."

Nathan:

That's a lot of skills.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

That is true, that is true. Although, also, in the real world, and this is no shade to anybody, not everyone has all those skills and-

Haeny:

I love when a sentence starts with that.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yeah, not everyone has all those skills and I think you need a dash of each but you don't necessarily need to be an expert in each. And again, I think that's one of the beautiful things about drag as an art form is that that's also part of the communal aspect. I don't know how to do hair but I know who to talk to who can do it better than I could ever dream up. And so, yeah, even though we are often solo performers, there is a lot of community effort that goes into building that persona, that look, all those sorts of things.

Nathan:

I think the idea that you talked about with it being this quick and sometimes not perfectly refined, I'm sure many, many, many, many performances are extremely refined.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

True.

Nathan:

But the way in which you're talking about it makes me think about the playful nature of that, you're playing, you're trying something out, you're dabbling and exploring and then move on into the next thing that you play with which I really like. That, to me, highlights the ways in which this is such a playful performance, playful way of engaging. I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about this persona of Lil Hot Mess. Has that been your persona from the beginning, from that first performance on Star Search as-

Haeny:

Starm Search.

Nathan:

Starm Search. We keep going to that, yeah. How'd you come up with it? When did it come about?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yeah. For me, I don't really think of myself as having a persona per se. Some drag performers do really create a character and a biography and a history and are really into that fictionalization of who they are in drag. And then, for me, I feel like I just let different aspects of my personality shine when I get into drag and sometimes surprising me as well what bubbles to the surface. But within that, I do feel like I ... Well, the one way that I often describe my drag is, if you've seen the film Beaches, which-

Nathan:

I have.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

I don't want to make any assumptions but-

Nathan:

Yeah, I have.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

The transition-

Nathan:

Many times in fact.

Haeny:

Yeah, me too. Many times too.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Okay, okay. I'm in the right place. The transition from Mayim Bialik to Bette Midler is my drag. It's I am that little tap dancing child into campi diva.

Nathan:

Oh, wow.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

And another way of putting it is I feel like I'm perpetually stuck in the body of a 13-year-old girl about to have her bat mitzvah and all this awkward teenage talent show vibes that might come with that but with a little bit of Jewish grandma mixing as well.

Haeny:

Oh, that's an awesome description.

Nathan:

Incredibly evocative, perfect.

Haeny:

Yeah. I really love what you're saying because I think, on the one hand, you could really appreciate the aesthetics and the art that goes into drag, not just the visual art and the performance art part but then I also hear you talking about the community and the support and the people that surround you. And I think doing any kind of performance is a risk, you're taking a risk and you have to do it in a place that feels safe and collaborative and, whatever you try, people are going to support you and clap for you and tell you that you're doing a good job and then give you feedback and let you move forward and help you with that and I think that's just a really beautiful part of any kind of play community.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yeah. Well, and it's a balance too. I do think that drag, for me at least, I never want drag to be completely safe, I always do want that element of risk. And I think you're right about the community and I also don't want to totally romanticize it either.

Nathan:

Sure.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Sometimes not everyone does clap for you, sometimes feedback isn't always as nice as it could be even if it's kind and trying to help you get to a better place. And so, yeah, I think there is always a little bit of a dance in that risk and safety and support and community amalgamation.

Haeny:

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Nathan:

As my dad always said when I was growing up, wouldn't it be fun if it was easy?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

That's actually ...

Nathan:

Usually saying that when something went horribly wrong. So, can you tell us a little bit about the Drag Story Hour? How'd you get involved in that? And maybe just give us, for our listeners, a short description of what it is.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

So, Drag Story Hour started semi-officially in 2015 in San Francisco, it was started by an organization called Radar Productions which was founded by the queer author Michelle Tea and managed at the time by authors Julián Delgado Lopera and Virgie Tovar. And collectively, they had this wild but maybe practical idea to bring children and drag performers together and to liven up a typical Saturday or Sunday morning story hour at your local public library. And I think it was such a wonderful spark of genius inspiration to just recognize the ways that so many forms of kids play and so many forms of drag really did overlap. And I had actually personally just moved away from San Francisco literally just a few months before this started happening and I started seeing on social media these amazing photos of kids and drag performers that just melted my heart and gave me all of the FOMO.

And so, maybe six months later or so, Michelle Tea came out to New York and we decided to do a Drag Story Hour there and, yeah. Basically, from the moment I did it, I was totally hooked and knew that it was something that I wanted to continue to do. I'd worked with kids in various capacities before and there was one specific event that I'd done a few years before probably with kids at a museum where this drag artist had a residency there and, as part of that, hosted this night where kids could come and help dress up or decorate a drag queen. It was actually a little bit scary, we were wearing these pre-made dresses and kids got to literally hot glue things. But it was this wonderful, yeah, moment of interaction and getting to really witness their creativity literally that up close to us.

And so, yeah, just folding all those different experiences in, I knew I wanted to be part of it. And yeah, I've worked with many other people around the country to build up chapters of Drag Story Hour and eventually to build up an international organization called Drag Story Hour where we support those local chapters and build connections and do all that stuff. So, it's a wonderful organization that's dear to my heart.

Nathan:

That's great.

Haeny:

I'm thinking about the article, you've written several articles about drag pedagogy and one of the things that I think really speaks to a lot of people, especially educators, is the idea of drag as a form of strategic defiance. And I think, even as you're talking about Drag Story Hour, I'm just thinking about all the ways that we are conceptualizing reading in schools and in the larger landscape. And we don't necessarily think of reading as playful and fun and an exploratory thing, I think we want to shove reading down people's throats and I think what drag does or Drag Story Hour does is it defies what reading can possibly be and opens up the potential for it.

And so, I'm thinking about what are ... You don't have to comment on the science of reading and all that stuff but tell us more about the connections or what you want people to understand about the idea of reading besides that it's fundamental.

Nathan:

And it's a science.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

I know. I was going to say I can't speak to the science of reading, maybe slightly to the art of reading. But I do think that, in a broad sense, and this is something that, in some ways, it's only occurred to me relatively recently, but all drag is about storytelling. It may not be about reading but it is about world building and character building and often creating a narrative, again, even if that's only in the space of three minutes of a lip sync or only use this really simple or gestural or choreographed kinds of actions to signify some kind of movement but it's about invoking feeling with your audience. And so, yeah, I think, in that way, Drag Story Hour is actually much more logical than it may seem because it really is just translating some of those elements for children.

Nathan:

I was thinking, actually, in reading one of your articles about, I think you mentioned that it's an obvious pairing in some ways. And despite the sense that what's going on here, it's obvious once it happened, it's, of course, kids are playing all the time and they're playing in all sorts of different ways and they're playing with costumes, they're playing with dress up and they're playing with acting and playing roles and so is this. And I love you're alluding to this sense of not just ... It's also that this gives another example of how adults can play and for young people to be able to see that play happening by an adult and then also engage in that play with that adult. That to me is a really beautiful idea that's happening in this space.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Absolutely. And yeah, just on a very visceral and emotional level, it is so nice to just get to experience that and to see the wonder in a child's eyes when you walk into the room dressed head to toe in sequins and being larger than life and wearing so many colors or patterns or just being this overstimulating, sensorial presence and, yeah. And I just think back to how much I would've loved that and adored that myself as a kid if I could have extended that dress up to be even more and more and more fabulous. And so, yeah, sometimes, honestly, Drag Story Hour is also just feels like a healing moment for me of getting to, yeah, play in ways that I wasn't necessarily able to as a child.

Haeny:

I think those two are wonderful points that you both have made because I think one of the things that we don't get to see enough is kids don't get to see adults play enough. And I think, from that, I think what kids take away from it is, I don't know if you've ever seen this TikTok where this girl is crying because she's like, "I don't want to be an adult," and she's crying about it for a long time and her mom's trying to console her like, "Well, it's okay, you're eight years old."

Nathan:

You got time.

Haeny:

Yeah. But I think it's this idea that you don't look forward to adulthood because what happens in adulthood is that you lose the sense of wonder and play.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Mm-hmm.

Haeny:

And I think that's so true. That's an example that you see, not just in drag, but just in other kinds of art forms that have to do with play and creativity and, as you transition to becoming an adult or whatever that means, that there is examples of that also happening out there.

Nathan:

Absolutely.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And yeah, when we started, I was talking about how last night I went out in drag and, honestly, recently, with Story Hour, I've tended to mainly get in drag for Story Hours, I haven't been as active in the nightlife as much and it was nice to step out or step back into that playground for me. And the show that I went to, I didn't actually perform, I was a judge for this lip-syncing competition where the ideas that drag queens shouldn't have all the fun and anyone should get to try lip-syncing and performing in their own way and being..

Nathan:

It's for you, Haeny, it's for you.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Exactly, yeah. Next time you're in LA. It has this almost we're all just kids back in our bedrooms throwing whatever we can onto ourselves and lip-syncing in the mirror vibe and, yeah, there is just something so wonderfully playful about that that it ... Yeah. I weirdly found myself getting emotional just being like, "How lucky are we to be in this space where we get to do this and create this for ourselves?"

Haeny:

Yeah, that's so true.

Nathan:

I like that.

Haeny:

Well, I feel like as an ending question, we want to think about what are some stereotypes or narratives or definitions about drag that you think that you want to dispel or that you want to have people rethink and think about differently. I know that's a very loaded, big question so I ask that with, it's like, "I don't mean any shade." That's how I'm going to start it, it's a loaded question.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Right. As if drag and discourse did not intersect. I think, on a very basic level, one of the myths that I always like to dispel is that a drag queen is a man in a dress or a drag queen as a male performer performing with feminine attire and qualities or a drag king is the opposite. And I do think, historically, drag has always been much more expensive than that and I think, even in the past five to 10 years, we've really seen an explosion of people of all identities approaching drag from all sorts of angles and with all sorts of imaginative interpretations and, yeah. I think that's important to recognize and I think that's also important to recognize, to challenge some of the more political myths about drag and who's doing it, that it's sexualized and all these sorts of things.

And then the other myth that I, it's a little more nuanced but that I do think we need to unpack, is this idea that drag isn't dangerous. And it's a slogan that is powerful and is important in the moment given all the attacks that we're seeing against drag in general and Drag Story Hour and drag for children. And so, yeah, it's not dangerous in the way that I think a lot of our critics want to think that it is or disingenuously position it as but, again, as we talked about towards the beginning, I do think that it's important to recognize the playful dangers of drag and that balance between risk and safety, better a broken arm than a broken spirit.

And I think that, sometimes with drag, we do need to be willing to put ourselves out there, maybe not to literally break bones, but to take those risks and to walk into the unknown and not know what's going to happen and figure it out collectively. And so, yeah, I worry sometimes that, in the discourse that we have now, that there is this move to sanitize drag or to make it seem entirely family friendly or to make it seem, yeah, all sunshine and lollipops and rainbows and I think it's okay to embrace the mess a little bit as well.

Haeny:

Yeah. I think we've talked about that a lot on our show about play just in general because I think there is also, in a very parallel discourse, that we often like to think of play in a very sanitized way too. And you think young kids play, we think all play is innocent and fun and it's all in good whatever, in good humor but sometimes it's not, they say very harmful things to each other about gender and race and their identities and about age. I just feel like I've heard it, the whole gamut of very problematic things happening in play but I think the response is not let's get rid of it, let's ban it, let's make them not play because we don't want to hear that stuff or we don't want them to be violent so let's really eliminate all violent play.

That doesn't mean you eliminate violence because you eliminate it from their play but it is that space to work it out and see what happens in it and to maybe intervene when you have to intervene and to think about how to extend it and shift it. So, I think that's a wonderful point, no any form is not going to be without risk or danger or problems or issues.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yeah. But I think also what drag offers, and this is something that I've been thinking a lot about in my work recently, is it also offers playful ways to make some of those corrections whether that is internally or whether that's with the broader world. So, again, things like shade and reading are playful ways of offering feedback of sometimes calling someone in or getting them in line when they've maybe overstepped or done something offensive. And I think, similarly, we can use some of those tools in these broader political discourses to playfully snap back and to not have to put on our suit and tie and say we're respectable citizens but to literally sass and say this is who you think I am but I'm showing you how fabulous I am and don't you want to join this party. We need to, I think, yeah, own that playfulness a little bit more in responding to these things.

Haeny:

Yeah, definitely.

Nathan:

That's great. Well, thank you very much, Lil Hot Mess, for talking with us and taking the time to talk with us about your performance and about the Drag Story Hour. Before we let you go, one thing that we like to do is we like to ask our guests what's popping. And by that we just mean what stuff are you into right now, what kind of pop culture are you consuming, what kind of books are you reading, movies, TV shows, games you're playing? What's popping for you right now?

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yeah, one thing I think that's popping for me right now is getting back into games, board games. I've never been a huge video game player but casual games. I've really been loving the New York Times play section recently and just, yeah, reminding myself to take those little breaks to play and also, I think, building more intentional spaces for social play as well. One of my 2024, I may not call it a resolution, but goals for 2024 is to learn or try out Dungeons and Dragons which I think is coming back around, a lot of my students are playing it and I feel ready to drag up Dungeons and Dragons.

Nathan:

Oh, nice.

Haeny:

Oh, man, we've had-

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

I know it's already been done on TV but it's ... Yeah, uh-huh.

Haeny:

We've had a lot of conversations about Dungeons and Dragons on this podcast-

Nathan:

A lot this season. That's great.

Haeny:

... you are right on track.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yes, I'm glad to be on trend.

Nathan:

We got some experts we can send your way.

Haeny:

Yes, exactly.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yes, yes, I love that.

Nathan:

That's great.

Haeny:

Yeah, okay. Well, thank you so, so much, this was so great. It was really wonderful talking to you. I definitely want to say check out those two children's books, they're amazing, everybody should get them for their classroom library.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Thank you.

Nathan:

And also, Lil Hot Mess wrote a blog post, right, on Play and Wellbeing?

Haeny:

Yes, okay.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Yes.

Haeny:

So, yes, on our playandwellbeing.org, check out Lil Miss Hot Mess's essay on play. I will say, I'm definitely a fan. I love your writing, I think your writing is amazing, it just is so rich and theoretical but then also playful and just really important.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Oh. Well, thank you and total mutual appreciation society right here.

Haeny:

Yeah. Well, thank you.

Nathan:

Thank you.

Lil Miss Hot Mess:

Thank you.

Haeny:

Pop and Play is produced by Haeny Yoon, Nathan Holbert, Lalitha Vasudevan, Billy Collins and Joe Riina-Ferrie at Teachers College Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. This episode was edited by Billy Collins and Adrienne Vitullo.

Nathan:

For a transcript and to learn more, visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leaf Eaters by Podington Bear used here under a creative commons attribution non-commercial license. Blake Danzig provided our social media and outreach support, follow @popandplaypod on Instagram and TikTok for more of what's popping like the Trashies with Ioana Literat. Thank you to Meyer Clark and Abu Abdulbaghi for support with our website and additional materials. And thanks to you for listening.