Episode VI: The Return of Nathan (LIVE with Cassie Brownell and Chris Moffett)

• The "Star Wars is Junk" article Nathan talked about
• Check out Chris's work with the Anjiplay project on True Play
• You can hear about the DJs Cassie mentioned from Be Loud Studios 
• Look into the deep dives in The Toys that Made Us that the group discusses
• Read about the play that Chris noticed in Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities
• Listen to Cassie discuss more of her work with capturing soundscapes with students
• Follow up on a collaborative paper that includes both the hosts and guests of this episode: The Aesthetics of (Un)Charted Play: Negotiating Nostalgia and Digital Demons in an Era of "Post-Truth" Educational Research

Nathan

The podcasting galaxy is in turmoil. So called experts equipped with Amazon basic mics, record and stream every thought to devices everywhere. Narrowly escaping another virtual conference, scholar rebels Cassie Brownell, Chris Moffett, and Lalitha Vasudevan race to a secret Pop and Play base, where pop master Haeny Yoon awaits the return of her long lost co host. This week on Pop and Play, we're live with a special Star Wars themed episode. With a live audience and our guests Cassie Chris and Lalitha, we debate the best uses of the Force, unbox brand new Star Wars toys and engage in a battle with a persistent drill that was surely set by the Dark Lords of the Sith-

Haeny

Nathan and I quickly discovered, however, that we will never become full fledged influencers as our unboxing skills left much to be desired. Just saying, it's hard to make unboxing engaging without proper training and skills. So we'll spare you the details of our awkward unwrapping. But just know that Baby Yoda and Chewbacca are safe and sound in our homes.

[music fades in under end of Haeny, then fades out as Nathan begins]

Nathan 

Hey, thank you everybody, for being here with us. This is like really cool to see all of you, well to see some of you; some of you are keeping your videos off. And today, we have, just so lucky to have with us today, Lalitha, Chris and Cassie. I'm excited. I'll let, I'll let Haeny take over.

Haeny 

Yeah, sure. So, I feel like a conversation between Nathan, Lalitha and Chris and Cassie and I was kind of like the impetus that started this whole journey for us. And so we thought it'd be really cool to bring them back to circle back into the conversation. And we feel like we had this conversation about play around the pandemic blues and when I started getting when it started getting real for everybody. And it's such a weird experience now to come back full circle. And now we're sort of trying to come out of the pandemic and think about play as well. We're excited to bring this group together and now in this platform where we're really trying to merge our academic life with our public life, right. And so I think we kind of started this podcast with the idea that we wanted to be involved in public conversations across, right not just within each other, not just within a research spaces or other conferences or spaces that we know of. But how enriching and enlightening it would be to engage everybody else right and to have conversations around play. So, maybe Cassie and Chris, do you want to just introduce yourselves really quick and tell us what you're up to? Cassie?

Cassie 

Sure. So my name is Cassie Brownell, and I am an assistant professor at the University of Toronto in the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education; very long name. And I spend a lot of my time thinking about how kids are playing, how communities are playing both with like analog materials, but also with digital materials, and how pop culture is infused in that. And I am really excited to be back with all of you- some of my favorite players! [Chris, Lalitha, Haeny and Nathan laugh]

Chris 

Nice. And so I am a, an alumni of teachers college, I was there in philosophy and education. So shout out. [Haeny and Cassie laugh] Currently at the University of North Texas in the College of Visual Arts and Design, teaching art, edu-, art education. And I'm very interested in the intersection of art and play, and looking at how we can think about play as part of a part of an arts curriculum. But also, I'm very interested in some early childhood play curriculum in China, where I've been doing some research. And so I'm sort of interested in the mix of things and how all these kinds of weird influences bump into each other.

Nathan 

We like to play games on pop and play. And we're gonna, we're gonna kind of bounce around for some a couple of different kinds of games today. I wanted to start though, just to kind of get us going to ask a series of questions for each of you to respond to, so this is gonna I'm gonna give you a scenario. And our guests, Chris, Cassie, Lalitha, Haeny, I'm gonna give you a scenario and then I'm gonna give you three possible responses that you might have, reactions that you might have to that scenario. Okay, does everybody kind of understand how this game is gonna work here.

Haeny 

Yep.

Lalitha 

You got it.

Nathan 

Okay. Let's see if I can- [Lalitha laughs] it's gonna work like I planned. Which it probably won't. Okay, first scenario. You're getting dressed in the morning and you realize that you're all out of socks. Here are your three possible responses. First: [R2D2 whistle that goes on and rises into a high scream like sound]. [Lalitha and Haeny laugh]

Is it that one or [a shorter series of whistling sounds, trending downward in pitch]

Lalitha 

Hmm

Nathan 

Or: [a short R2D2 sounds that starts high, dips low, and then comes back high in pitch]. 'Kay, which response when you're trying to find, get ready in the morning, you realize you're out of socks? Which response do you go with?

Lalitha 

Look, I feel like Cassie is writing.

Cassie 

Three.

Nathan 

Three [replays third sound].

Cassie 

Totally.

Nathan 

Just cause you might've forgotten.

Lalitha 

Yeah.

Haeny 

Tell us why.

Lalitha 

Yeah.

Cassie 

Um, I feel like the first one was like too long of a thought. And the second one was like a little too short and sad. But this one sounded like a little aggravated, but just enough.

Nathan 

Yeah. [Lalitha laughs] Anyone else?

Lalitha 

Yeah, I gotta go with three, too, cuz that was like the right amount of [aggravate sigh] angst, but with hope built in. I feel like that's what, it's like a angsty hope. I really I feel you, Cassie.

Cassie 

How people have described Pop and Play. Angsty hope. [Cassie, Lalitha and Haeny laugh]

Nathan 

Angsty hope.

Chris 

Angsty hope. [laughs] I was gonna say I really felt like there was a little bit of a weee in there like, oh, no socks. [Cassie and Lalitha laugh] This is gonna be a good day.

Nathan 

I like that. I like how you turned the scenario around?

Haeny 

Yeah.

Nathan 

It's not all bad, right?

Haeny 

Yeah. Forget about the angsty. Just hope.

Lalitha 

Just hope.

Chris 

Yeah. Just hope. Hope. 

Lalitha 

Okay. Okay.

Nathan 

One might say A New Hope, really. [laughter]

Haeny 

Well I definitely have to go with the first one. Because that's how I usually react to anything. [Lalitha laughs] So I usually have a very long scream happening at the end of things. [first whistling sound plays] [Lalitha laughs] And so my husband Neil always makes fun of me, because I do that a lot. And then he thinks and just nothing's happening. And so the one time something is happening, he'll be sorry. [Lalitha laughs]

Nathan 

I like the idea that the first part is actually you digging through your [Lalitha: yeah, yeah, yeah. Laughter] sock drawer like [imitates first whistling sound]. But when you realize no socks, no socks.

Haeny 

Mmhmm.

Nathan 

Amazing work, you all, you really have embodied R2D2, despite the fact that there's a power drill happening that is no doubt frightening R2D2 as we speak. [Lalitha, Chris and Cassie laugh] But we want to move on to the next phase of our game. And I'm gonna ask a series of questions to Cassie.

Lalitha 

Ooo.

Haeny 

Tell everybody why Cassie is the one that's being picked on right now.

Nathan 

Cassie, would you like to confess? Or shall I

Cassie 

Never have I ever seen Star Wars? Any of them. Even The Mandalorian.

Nathan 

For those of you.

Chris 

Even The Mandalorian.

Nathan 

For those of you just listening to this on the podcast, I mean, there's like a huge crowd of people here and they're all booing. [laughter] They're all just booing racously. They're all pointing at Ca- like ah, hiss, boo. It's getting a little intense. I think that actually might be what the drill was for, in response. [laughter] So we thought we, go ahead. Sorry,

Cassie 

Can I also just add like I really just never knew R2D2 in the like little things I knew about him, that he would have such different feelings that I could hear. So thanks for like really opening my eyes and ears to that.

Nathan 

So, So Cassie, having confessed to us that she has not seen any of the Star Wars films, we thought it would be important to ask her some questions and sort of get a sense of what, what the idea of Star Wars must be like from somebody outside of Star Wars.

Lalitha 

Mmhmm.

Nathan 

And so we're gonna start with a couple questions to her and then we're gonna open this up to, to everyone else. Okay. Finish this famous saying by Jedi Master Yoda. Do or do not.

Cassie 

Oh my gosh, I really don't know. [laughing]

Nathan 

Do or do not. I really don't know. [all laugh]

Cassie 

Do or do not...

Haeny 

Don't know really do. [laughter]

Cassie 

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Lalitha 

I see people trying to help you out that in the chat. So far-

Cassie 

Is this the, there is no try.

Nathan 

Oh my goodness.

Cassie 

Wooo! Dingdingding!

Nathan 

Do or do not, there is no try. Amazing work.

Lalitha 

Well done. Well done.

Nathan 

Are you actually a Star Wars afficionado. And you just-

Cassie 

Seen them all. Every single one. Memorized them.

Lalitha 

I know, she's a hustler.

Nathan 

She's a hustler.

Lalitha 

She is gaming us.

Haeny 

Yeah, she is.

Lalitha 

Wow. Impressive.

Haeny 

She's trying to play us on Pop and Play. [Lalitha laughs]

Nathan 

Play us on Pop and Play.

Cassie 

I have been friends with Haeny for a while. So it's really- I spent a lot of time teaching at an all boys school where Star Wars was a thing. [Haeny and Nathan laugh]

Nathan 

Some of it seeps out eventually right.

Cassie 

Yeah. [laughing]

Nathan 

Well, okay, let's try one more question at you Cassie and then we'll sort of bounce around everybody else. Can you tell us what is an Ewok?

Cassie 

Um [laughs] a part, an Ewok... Oh, those are the little furry guys.

Haeny 

There she goes with the furry thing again. [laughing]

Cassie 

And they have guns.

Nathan 

Furry guys with guns.

Haeny 

What'd she say, furry guys. [laughs]

Cassie 

They're like, they have like kind of big eyes like, kind of raccoon-y, like in that they have like, aren't they like white and gray? Maybe they wear vests. They're like, look like little sort of teddy bears but like furrier.

Nathan 

I mean.

Cassie 

Is that what an Ewok is?

Nathan 

This is feeling really solid.

Lalitha 

Yeah.

Nathan 

What's great about it is I think you're right. But also the description [Lalitha laughing: Mike] is so hilarious. It's an accurate description.

Lalitha 

Yes

Nathan 

But it's hilarious. It's a teddy bear that wears a vest and carries a gun. [laughter] And it comes in all colors.

Lalitha 

With big eyes.

Nathan 

With big eyes. Big raccoon eyes. That is extremely accurate, if hilarious and ridiculous.

Cassie 

And a mean face. Don't they have like mean faces?

Nathan 

Oh, I don't know, [indistinct] nice.

Lalitha 

Yeah, like deceptively cute, but when you look closely at them, I agree with you. Like you want them to have more of a cuteness to them. But they're kind of like,

Haeny 

Maybe that's [indistinct]

Cassie 

I don't know if they're on the good or the bad side. Slash, is there a good and bad side in Star Wars? [Cassie and Lalitha laughing]

Haeny 

Mike said they try to eat people.

Nathan 

They do actually try to eat people. That's true. They do try to cook and eat people.

Lalitha 

Yeah, yeah.

Nathan 

So they do it in a very hilarious way. [laughter] But-

Haeny 

So cute. It's cute.

Nathan 

It's adorable how they try to eat people. So the question is, are they on the good side or bad side? That, that is an open question, I suppose, right now that they often like to eat people.

Lalitha 

Yeah. Amazing. [laughs]

Nathan 

So good. So accurate in your ability to sort of describe Star Wars from the outside not having seen them. Or maybe you've actually seen all of them. And you've seen them all multiple times. [laughter] And you're just pretending that also seems like a possibility here. [Haeny: mmhmm] I want to open this up, though, as much fun as it is to sort of see you know, what Cassie gets doesn't. [Lalitha laughs] I want to open this up. And I want to open this first of all to our guests. But if anyone in the audience has a particular answer to this, they'd like to chime in with as well. I'd love to hear your thoughts, too. And this is a question I've thought a lot about, personally. So I'll give the question. I'll give you my answer. And then I'll see what you guys think. If you had the force, you [Lalitha: mmmmm] now have the powers of the force. Those of you guys who've seen the movie know, there's all sorts, it comes in all sorts of different forms, the force. If you had the force, what would you use it on? What would be your primary use of the force? My own, and I'm, I'm not joking here. I've thought about this a great deal. [Haeny laughs] And I'm certain that to me, the most important use of the force would be you know, if you see street side parking, you see all the cars parked [Haeny laughs] and there'll be like, these really big gaps between cars. [Lalitha laughs] My primary use of the force would be to move the cars closer, using my my force powers so that you could you could more people could park there, I think that would be like an really important service to to all of the galaxy. You know.

Haeny 

Well tell the audience why parking is such a big deal to you in this space.

Nathan 

Well, I don't even have a car anymore. [laughter] Which makes this answer perhaps a little weirder. As someone used to have a car and would frequently drive in circles, you know, around and around blocks in Chicago to try to find one spot that I could really fit my car into. I often would be like, man, if I could just - oop, oop - That's the sound of the force by the way [Lalitha laughs]. Then I, then that, I think that would be really important use of of it. So that's that's my use. Others, how would you use the force if you could?

Lalitha 

Yeah, Cassie, Chris, what are you thinking?

Nathan 

You could also for those of you, for Cassie, maybe you don't know, you can use suggestion powers. You can make people to think things that you want them to think [Haeny laughs] you can also electrocute them if you need to, if that's what you're into. You can lift things.

Lalitha 

It's true. It's true.

Nathan 

You can- What else? How would you guys use the Force?

Lalitha 

Well I like Yoda's stylistic use of it. He's like, very cool about it. Right? Like he's not putting his whole effort into it. He's just like, Here, let me lift a spaceship with my finger. And I like the coolness of that kind of like, massive change with minimum effort. [Nathan: right] I have also had a similar thought, I've never owned a car. But I've had the similar thought of like just walking by streets and being like zhoop, zhoop, zhoop, zhoop, [laughs] clearly my version of the Force sounds a little different. But I don't know what I would use it for, now. I have to ponder that a little bit more. But I do like the kind of style, I would, stylistically I think I would be very minimalist in my gesture of the use of the force [laughs].

Nathan 

Pretty chill with your use of the Force like, meh.

Lalitha 

Calm and chill, that definitely describes you. So,

Nathan 

[laughs] That's true.

Haeny 

I could see why you would want to use that as the force.

Lalitha 

Okay, okay, okay.

Haeny 

That does not describe me. [Haeny and Lalitha laugh]

Cassie 

Mine [instinct] very like time dependent.

Lalitha 

Yours is time dependent Cassie?

Cassie 

I think so, in terms of like, if I can use the power of suggestion, I would suggest a lot of meetings ended early or were emails.

Nathan 

[laughs] This is not the meeting you were looking for.

Cassie 

Or, that people just realize. [Lalitha laughs]

Nathan 

Right. You don't need to send that email.

Cassie 

Or, people just realize like they don't actually even need to send the email, things are fine.

Lalitha 

Oh [Nathan laughs] This is really tapping into sort of the moment we're in. [laughs] You're really using the Force.

Cassie 

Very current.

Lalitha 

[laughs] Right.

Nathan 

You won't unmute to ask that dumb question. [laughter] I like yeah, you know, Angelica also has suggested that she would might just use the Force to move the laundry from one room, down stairs, a few floors. [Lalitha laughing] I think that seems like a, or she said suggests that she might just make somebody else do it for her using mind control. Sounds pretty great too.

Haeny 

Oh definitely, I could see that one.

Nathan 

Yeah.

Haeny 

I mean, I would definitely have the Force maybe put the duvet cover on my bed, so that I don't have to mess with that. [Lalitha laughs] So that would definitely be a number one. For right now, I think I would use the Force to get rid of that drilling sound in the background [Nathan and Lalitha laugh]. Just saying.

Nathan 

Force, Force push the guy right off the scaffolding.

Haeny 

[indistinct] Lalitha use subtle gestures.

Lalitha 

Oh yeah. [Haeny and Nathan laugh]

Haeny 

It didn't work.

Lalitha 

No, it didn't. I'm trying to convince them to do something different. [laughs]

Haeny 

Yeah.

Chris 

Well, first of all, I'm not sure even the Force can handle a duvet cover.

Lalitha 

It's true [Haeny, Cassie and Lalitha laugh]

Chris 

But I remember, I just, I remembered, I just flashed back to this moment where I was working with this kid who was super into Star Wars, and I kind of pissed them off a little bit. And I could see that he was trying to make me go away. [laughter] He was really- He was not joking. He was like, I'm gonna get this thing to work, finally. [Haeny laughs] So-

Lalitha 

What were you?

Chris 

I think-

Lalitha 

What were you doing to bother him?

Chris 

I was poking him or something. No- [laughter] I was just asking him questions.

Lalitha 

Yeah, I'm asking cuz it, I've seen that happen. I have an "n" of one living with me. Who is seven. That sounds weird. I have a kid.

Nathan 

You could just talk normal [laughter]. [Indistinct]

Chris 

[indistinct] it's an R2D2 knock-off.

Lalitha 

Sorry she's seven. But she has often tried to use the Force on me. And usually it's to get me to either disappear or like acquiesce to her, you know, whatever. Or, like you were saying, to just get her, get me to stop bothering her. And I don't think I'm that much of a bother. But I do poke her like literally and figuratively [Chris laughs]. So I wonder if that's it, Chris. Maybe I should just stop doing that.

Chris 

Yeah, this os the origin story of the Force. [laughter] Somebody was poking somebody and they're, like, Oh, my God, I can make them go away.

Haeny 

That sounds awesome. That was fun. That was a fun game. [Lalitha laughs] We like to spend a lot of our time just playing games [Haeny, Lalitha and Nathan laugh]. We also like to talk about play.

Lalitha 

We do.

Haeny 

So I think I'm just gonna pose one question to the group. And it's really just a conversation amongst us. So how has work-play changed in the pandemic for you? And what have you maybe uncovered about yourself that you didn't know?

Lalitha 

Yeah, go for it. Cassie. I feel like you're ready to jump in.

Cassie 

I was like pointing over to Chris, but I [laughter] guess now I've been called out so I will.

Chris 

You missed me. [laughter]

Lalitha 

We can edit that.

Cassie 

Um, yeah, I think that anyone who has talked to me since January knows that I've been getting to hang out in this like after school program. It's called Be Loud Studios in New Orleans. And so they do like, kid radio sort of thing. And so every Monday there's like this group of kids, like hops on and then on Tuesdays, they have like an open studio session. And my two, two of my favorite DJs, not my two favorite, two of my favorite DJs are DJ Gossip and DJ Storm. And so they're like, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh graders. And they show up every week. And like, I just, like, learn so much from DJ Gossip about like, what's his favorite music right now. He's the reason I bought Disney plus, because all he did was talk about WandaVision. He would like incorporate music from WandaVision and was just like, you know, I think like paying attention to like, pop culture, but like learning so much from him. And like having him push me to do things that like I wasn't doing in the time of the pandemic yet. And then there's, DJ Storm is super cool in that he like, creates super awesome beats, by just like, looping things, and then like looping things with loops. And it's super fun and super cool to listen to. And so I think for me, like I've been thinking a lot about, like, the ways that like, this space created a community for kids that weren't finding it during the time of the pandemic. But a lot of the kids, like many kids in places all over like haven't actually had the chance to hang out face to face. And so they've recently had some field trips where they've gone to different, see different artists or be in a garden or be outside, and I haven't been there for those, but I am going to go to their camp this summer. So I'm excited. But I think like listening to these two like, you know, middle grades kids just like engaging and play in different ways and like spending their time and like honing different sorts of skills than they otherwise may have has been really fun. So I've been, been learning from them, and thinking with them a lot.

Haeny 

What new artists have you been interested in, and now that you've spent time with these illustrious DJs?

Cassie 

I als- I watched, Assembling, like the Marvel Universe yesterday and the first episode's about WandaVision. And so they talk to the people who did the theme song for each of the shows. And like, that was super cool. So now I need to like, go back and re listen to like, what clips he chose, like, what WandaVision theme song like resonated the most with him, I think is a really interesting sort of a question. And like, why.

Nathan 

Well, one of the things that's so cool about that, I mean, you know, I think everyone knows this, but it's worth talking about for this particular podcast, right, is it's not just knowing about Star Wars or knowing about Marvel, it's not like just knowing information. It's not just

Cassie 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nathan 

I read, I read some comics. And now I know who that character is. And it's sort of about the kind of a culture that you've, you've either engaged yourself deeply in, or you get to step into or you get to observe from the peripheries, right.

Chris 

Can I, Can I just add something to that to like, I think it also makes me think that it's not just about how do we, how do we form up and then play within communities, but like, what's the play across communities? Especially sort of generationally, right. It's like, like, the music you listen to, versus the music some other generation listens to. And I think a lot of the play is actually not in knowing all the same things, but actually knowing them differently, or not knowing all the same things. I mean, look at my how much fun it is here, just to kind of play with that, that idea of not knowing, which reminds me actually back to Star Wars. And this kid who tried to make me go away. I was actually, so I was working with him in movement education. So it was a lot of hands-on work. And he loved to talk and was never quiet. So as I was working with him in movement, we would just have this constant running conversation, but I was focusing on other things. So I tried to like minimally keep the conversation going while we were working. And he was into, super into Star Wars for a period. And so once I was, I was holding his head and moving it really slowly, and you know, meditatively, and he's like, so who's your favorite Star Wars character? And I was like, I don't know, Luke Skywalker. And he said, Who's Luke Skywalker? And I like froze. I was like, What did you just say? [laughter] And all of a sudden I was like right in the conversation. Right? Like, I've been just kind of churning along and then I was like, What just happened? And it was really fascinating. We spent like, the next like, three weeks unpacking like, wait, what do you know? It's like, do you know this? Like, and so I think it's just really interesting to think about those, also those moments of play between between knowings. [Haeny: mmm]

Lalitha 

Well, it's like play as rupture, but also play as like, like re fabricating. Right? And I'm going to introduce a, an idea. And I'm looking at you, Chris, because you did graduate from our philosophy and education program. So this might be a total bastardization of what this text [Chris laughs] is meant to do. But when you were just talking, I was reminded of that essay by Italo Calvino, about revisiting the classics. And he talks about how you know, you, you the classics aren't just one canon, right? Like, but if you can have the classics, but then every time you revisit them, you engage in a different relationship with them. And what's classic to you changes over time. And I was thinking about that, as you were talking about, not only the bringing together and moving across communities, and that kind of like remixing and bricolage that happens when you move in and out of communities. But also sort of how, you know, I think of something that Haeny talked about, either a few episodes ago, or during that original conversation, when you said, you were newly introduced to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, through these kids, and then went down this rabbit hole. You knew of them, but then you went down, and maybe it wasn't a classic for you before. But now, the classic you know, it's sort of become this classic in your research ouvre.

Cassie 

Um, have you all seen the, The Toys that Made Us?

Nathan 

Yes.

Haeny 

I watched one episode of it, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles one.

Cassie 

Yeah, because I, I was like, Haeny, you have to watch this, I hope. But I think that that's like a really, to me that like kind of showcases what you're talking about Lalitha of like, how do these like communities change and shift over time? And like, what are classics? Because like, I loved My Little Pony as a kid, but like, I wasn't the first generation of My Little Pony and like My Little Pony like shifted greatly to like when I was hanging out with kids, and they were into it when I was like, an educator and then in grad school versus like, what it looks like now. And I think that the understandings of like, what's at the heart of it, like how does that get sustained or not by like, companies, production companies, or toy companies, or like the community itself, I think is a really interesting sort of thing to be thinking about.

Lalitha 

I'm thinking of the last episode where there was so much conversation about the market

Nathan 

I was just thinking [indistinct] too. Right?

Lalitha 

Mind meld but like, right, like and, and

Nathan 

Yeah.

Lalitha 

What shapes, what shapes what you do,

Nathan 

Yeah.

Lalitha 

Right, which is the most obvious silly way to put it, but, and how much of exposure, I think there was a, there was a comment Joe made earlier about how, how well Cassie answered those questions and how much of that has to do with just Star Wars in the universe.

Haeny 

Yeah. Well, that's like the power of pop culture, right is that it's not just about the market. And it's not just about objects or the Baby Yoda that we might have just gotten right. But that it shows how like people can collectively mobilize around something and then make it into a thing again.

Lalitha 

Yeah.

Haeny 

Like how I think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was dormant for a little bit. Right. And then there was a resurgence of it, because people and young children and, you know, even adults, right would gather around and, you know, create some kind of momentum that kind of lets it become a thing again, right. And so I think that's the agency of people and being able to do that.

Lalitha 

Well, I was I was gonna ask, I wonder if, if your question initially Haeny about sort of where has play taken you this year. And we went on this really interesting journey with that. And, and I'm wondering, is part of that also, like, not to overdo the space time connection, but I think it's interesting to see like what people have tinkered with this year? And like, you mean, you have, I have been gifted with a copy of Haeny's zine, which is excellent. [Haeny laughs] Just putting that out there feel bad, Nathan. Feel bad. [Lalitha laughs]

Nathan 

I'm just going to put it out there that I have not [Lalitha laughs] [indistinct] a copy of the zine.

Haeny 

I went to make more copies of it. Okay. So don't worry,

Lalitha 

It's coming.

Haeny 

But it's also truly expensive to be an artist. Chris probably knows. [Haeny, Lalitha and Nathan laugh]

Lalitha 

There you go. Yeah, grant applications should be a lot simpler [Haeny laughs] to be able to access money for creative play. [Haeny: yeah] But I, so I wonder about that, too. Like whether, like whether part of this year has been a revisiting of old things. But I think, Cassie, you were also sharing with us that you've entered a kind of new spaces, because of the kind of, like, play that you engaged in.

Cassie 

I was gonna add, I think that the last time we all talked, I was talking about like the shifts of play in my neighborhood. Because I think also like, I don't know, Toronto, were still locked down. But like being locked down means that like these opportunities to go outside shift things. And so I think like watching the relationships, I sound like such a creep, but my apartment like looks over a street that's full of like younger families, who now are outside all of the time with their kids who are playing together, like, a lot of them are under like five or six. And then the parents are now talking. But there's also like basketball hoops, both for kids and for adults, like in the street in a way that like those sorts of relationships just weren't there in the time before COVID. Because people were like, going about their days seeing their friends in other parts of the city, or like doing the various activities and things that they had like going on. And so I think like, how play opens up alternative, like relationships, again, with like, time, space, what is offered there.

Chris 

Well, I was I was thinking it's like, and back to Calvino in a way, like I was thinking about, you know, the play that's going on in his work Invisible Cities, and how much it's related to different conceptions of time and space and the sort of play that's available. But then that's a set of sort of, like little vignettes, right, it's like how do you move from city to city is always a question, which is also in some sense, the, the question of Star Wars, right? It's like, and, it's like, we just displace it in space. But every, every planet in Star Wars is actually something like, like a micro city. It has its own microclimate, right, it doesn't, it's not like you either have the cold planet or the the desert planet, or, you know, the, the forest planet, or whatever. And then the whole question becomes, how do you, who gets to say how and how, and when you move between those, how do you partake or not, when you when you move across these spaces? And I think, when we get something like a pandemic, that challenges our capacities to move at this scale as, as sort of consumers of space, then it then like as, as the player of the world gets big, then, then our play, in some sense, gets smaller and drives us back to the materials, right back to these, these neighborhood spaces, to what we have at hand. And then, it's so it's an interesting kind of way of thinking about sort of the play that we're, we're finding now as a way to think differently about how we move through space, but also what counts as movement through space.

Haeny 

Maybe I'll build on this space time material continuum that we're having right now.

Lalitha 

I like it.

Haeny 

And this is a question for Chris. So I knew I just interrupted you too. [Nathan and Chris laugh] But I think the, I think the theme that has been running through a lot of our podcast is we started off with the idea of play and children's culture. And obviously a lot of it led to popular culture and hence the name Pop and Play. Right. But I think one of the things that people have been mentioning is the space of art and creativity, right, as an imaginative, social creative space to play, right that we don't have to think about play as just games and toys. We don't have to think about play as pop culture figures and all the things that we play with but we can also see play as like an social invention. Right and, space of creativity. So I was wondering, as someone who sits on the intersection of those things, right, about play and art and creativity, how have you seen, how have you seen your work going forward? And what are you excited about in that sense, in that intersection of space and material and time?

Chris 

I actually ran across a really fascinating, just a little snippet of an article about this research that was thinking about objects as being the centers for, for digital communication, rather than this kind of frontal face to face thing where we're all just staring at our, at our heads, which is very unusual. It doesn't it never even happens this way in physical reality. And instead, they were thinking about a table as the, as the grounding object, almost like a an object in common. I've been teaching a course on art appreciation. And in going back to what I was saying before about how when, you know, when the world starts playing kind of, kind of large, like sometimes it's, it's useful to kind of to go small with your play. So I've been asking my students just to make circles. [laughs] Or like, just a semester of circles, which is, which is like, my mind numbingly banal when you say it, like just, we're just going to circle for a semester. [Lalitha: yeah] [Nathan laughs] It's amazing how just coming back to that very simple play, over and over and over again, with them, adding in these tiny little permutations along the way, gave us a kind of shared table. But it wasn't a t-, it wasn't a physical table. It was actually our like, like, we were establishing gestures in common. And, and right now, actually, we're doing I just started a course, in Guangzhou Fine Art Academy, with their undergraduate art education students all organized around the idea of walking as an artistic practice, which again, poses some interesting sort of translation challenges and digital challenges. But what we've been doing is, again, going small, so instead of some kind of elaborate conversation or something like that, it's like, can you design, almost like a micro protocol for walking that you can hand off to somebody. Like it's requires very little bandwidth, you just, like a, just a phrase or something. And then they have to go and try it and explore it in their environment, and then come back, and we can trade protocols that way.

Lalitha 

Somebody asked me something about, just to kind of reflect on this year and the impact it's had on children. And I said, You know, I gotta say, the people, the group that I feel the most, I feel for is the, like, 10 to 19 year olds, because I think it's so much of being an early adolescent to later adolescent is about the shared experience that comes with that kind of the suggestion of a protocol. Right, the coming together of spaces to allow the unpredictability to explode, in a way that certainly still happens with little kids, right, like we have under 10s. Still. [laughs]

Nathan 

Little longer, little longer.

Lalitha 

[laughs] That's right. And they're, you know, like, the coming together around paper. And, like, just being able to come together has been so important. But I think about like, there were a few pieces that have come out in the last few months about the toll the pandemic is taking on teens in particular, and thinking about how much is happening and, and what's the lingering impact of having your space, time, and materiality curtailed in such a drastic way?

Nathan 

Right.

Lalitha 

And what does the return to the openness of protocols like you're saying, that are premised on the possibility of the unpredictability? Like what, what, how do you get people to get back into that which is so natural for adolescence, but yet it's been removed from, removed from them this year? So I keep coming back, cuz the other piece of it, you know, I think we went here during our last call, like, a year ago, and I'll I think, unfortunately, the country has stayed here. And 'n we talked about dangerous play, right, like we talked about how the play of some adolescents is seen as worthy of criminalizing to the point of, you know, having a range of reactions leveraged against them, including fatal responses. And so that still exists in this broader Zeitgeist of adolescence and play. And now we have pandemic. And so I think, that's what I'm trying to really wrestle with too, because I think everything we're talking about, space and time and materiality, ha- is going to have implications for how we go back to school, how we go back to designing those spaces, and how are we going to hold these lessons not only of kids play but our need to play when we go back to doing research again, when we go back to teaching in classrooms again, full time. Sorry to bring it way down, y'all, but it's, it's I think, I think that's, that's why I think this conversation about holding play feels really important, because it becomes too easy to be able to let it go, to let it be a slippage into a particular moment in time.

Haeny 

Well, I think what's interesting about this moment, too is that play and social relationships and all that is a lot less organized or structured. [Lalitha: yeah] Because we don't have those organizing [Lalitha: yeah] parameters around. And I'm thinking back to your circle repetition-

Lalitha 

I love that.

Haeny 

-class, Chris. And I think we sometimes think that repetition or having structural organization is the opposite of play, right? [Lalitha and Nathan: right] Because we tend to think of play as flexible and free and without boundaries. And that that's the only way they can play. But I don't think that's [Lalitha: yeah] necessarily at the other end of it is structure and organization and repetition, right? Because those things can be openings [Lalitha: mmhmm] to having some creative expression. And I think, Chris, you talked about that, right? Like, I just, I was imagining myself starting off drawing circles, and how at the end of the semester, that's going to shift and change a lot, right. And some, something about that organizing frame has given me an opportunity to play right and think flexibly about it. And so, I think all of that is really interesting to think about in this time, right, that we actually got a chance to see, disorganized [Lalitha: yeah] play and it wasn't [Nathan laughs] always [Lalitha: yeah] helpful [Lalitha: no.]. And it wasn't always [Lalitha: such a good point]. You know, it wasn't always like a useful thing that, you know, didn't give utility to everybody. And so I that's, [Lalitha: yeah] you know, I think that idea is really a good point. And I'll- further, brings us to the idea that we cannot define play.

Lalitha 

No. [laughs]

Haeny 

Right, as one thing right [indistinct]

Nathan 

Right.

Lalitha 

Much as people want us to. [Nathan: ahh] [Haeny: yeah] We're not gonna do it.

Haeny 

Yeah.

Nathan 

Not gonna do it. Not today. Not today. [Lalitha laughs]

Cassie 

I, I was thinking, as you were talking about, like adolescents, thinking about, like, what are the scripts for play? Right? And so thinking about, like, the ties to pop culture in terms of like, I don't know, I think people have talked about like watching television and seeing people not in masks with not distanced, and like how disruptive that is, but like thinking about, like, what are the scripts for like moving out of this phase? Or like, how do we play in this phase? And not to say that we have to rely on those, but I think that those like guided initial ways that people were playing and connecting with others at the start of the pandemic? And like, I don't know, like, in the chat, Lucius commented about, like, walking, and I think, like, outdoor play, like, how, how has that shifted? I mean, I don't know about you all, but like in Toronto, like it was impossible to find bikes, or a camping gear or kayaks, because people were engaging in like, very embodied actions outside of their homes, in different ways last summer. And so I'm interested to see like, is that something that will continue? Like, does everyone already own bikes now? So we don't need bikes anymore? Or will people be like, maybe vaccinated and ready to travel? And so that looks really different, too.

Lalitha 

That is interesting, like when people were, I mean, you also get a sense of what was happening, when there were like, runs on things in the stores. [Nathan laughs] Right? Like, I remember trying to find yeast or flower in like March and April.

Cassie 

Yeah everybody was baking.

Lalitha 

Right? Exactly. [laughs]

Haeny 

I just wanted to get it because it wasn't there. [laughter]

Nathan 

Just, just want what you can't have.

Haeny 

Uh huh.

Cassie 

I think that's a really interesting question, though, too, in terms of like, are we as adults going to prioritize, like our downtime and our play, but like, are we going to put kids back into 18 organizations and sports and like after school clubs, or like, 'r we gonna let 'em come home and hang out with the neighborhood kids?

Haeny 

Great point.

Cassie 

Or to come home and you know, hop on a digital game with people from around the world like.

Lalitha 

Yeah,

Nathan 

Well, and how are those things-

Lalitha 

Yeah.

Nathan 

Not only, not only will they change, but how quickly will they? Like, I often think about the fact that, you know, there's some things that are just likely to kind of stick around because we've sort of, not just because we got used to them, but because we enjoy them. I mean, I have a trivia night that I do with some friends that, that live all over, you know, all over the world, actually. And we gather together on a Friday night, we do trivia together, and like we're still doing it. We've been doing it for now, almost a year, almost every single week. And that's pretty crazy, right? And maybe we'll keep doing that. Because it's a chance for us to hang out and see each other even though maybe there's other things we might be able to do eventually on a Friday night. But how quickly are they going to change?

Cassie 

I mean, if it's Star Wars trivia, though, like you'll be there every time. [Lalitha and Haeny laugh]

Nathan 

Yeah I'll be there eeevery night. For sure. For sure.

Lalitha 

I wonder if the question is not what's going to get carried over. But like, have we been... Have we been changed? Like, what's, you know, have we been changed in a way that we are not going to necessarily go back but we move forward with what? Carrying What? And so I think that that's an interesting thing to kind of ponder as well, like I yeah, like the-

Chris 

I mean I-

Lalitha 

Yeah, go ahead, Chris. Sorry.

Chris 

Well, sorry to cut you off. I was just thinking it, like it does, in my mind, still come back to the materiality, too. Which is like it's, it's not enough for us to be changed internally. And that's going to be the thing that carries us through, but also, what in our structures around us has already been changed or is, is available for play that we didn't realize, right. And so I think that's going to be one of the real challenges, just as we've had to figure out, okay, how to make do with the materials around our house or in our neighborhood. Then it's like, as we move back into these, you know, institutional material structures, What's there? And what can we do with it? And what can we do with it differently? Because if, if, if we can't find that, then no matter how much we feel like we've been transformed, then there's just not a lot of support for, for, for play. For like, continuing the question of play. Right. So I think, you know, one of the interesting, you know, questions of play is, how do we keep this going? Right? It's like, how do you get started? And then once it started, like, what, like, what do you do to make sure that the play continues, right? And it's not always it's not always obvious. So you have to really kind of keep asking that question as you go. And especially as you move into different circumstances, like, what does this look like now? Okay, what about now?

Cassie 

But can we take lessons from kids? Like, I'm just thinking about, like kids show up at recess, right? The bell rings; it ends, and then the next recess, they're out there, and they're just like, pick up right where they left off.

Nathan 

Yeah - That's true.

Cassie 

Like nothing has happened in the last four hours. [laughter]

Haeny 

Yeah.

Cassie 

And here I am ready to go with the, like fort we're building or like this. Who was it? Who was frozen?

Nathan 

Right. Oh, man. [Lalitha laughs]

Cassie  

Important details.

Nathan 

I would love to be able to pick that up. Would that be great just to sort of be able to like, jump right back where you left off?

Haeny 

Yeah,

Nathan 

I think I think I'm going to be a bundle of awkwardness for the first three or four months instead. [Haeny laughs] But I wish I could just be like, oh, yeah, no, boom right back where we were. [Haeny and Lalitha laugh] I'm just, I'm conscious of the time and I want to make sure people [Haeny: yeah] can hang around for us to talk about stuff we're encountering and exploring so, you know, we'll each answer but I wonder if you know, Chris, or Cassie, if either you want to start us out with what's been poppin for you.

Cassie 

I came prepared in that I wore this really cool hoodie, that I just did an ice tie dye on. So if you can't see it, just follow me on my Instagram. I'm just kidding. Ice tie die; so okay, poppin for me. The whole pandemic I've like taken back up baking. As such, I followJoy the Baker otherwise known for Drake on a cake at the Nola bake house. She recently posted a hoodie that she bought from a woman who lives in Astoria who lost her job in the pandemic and started ice tie dying, which she now does for a living. And ice - I went down a long rabbit hole a week ago, because I messed up some tie dying I did with my friend, Jon Wargo, shout out, and [laughs] I was like, oh my god, ice dying is so cool. Um, and I like to tie dye but ice dying is like, you have to do like a soda ash wash on the material. Chris probably like knows all this. He's, he's gonna like check and see if I do it right. As an artist. [Haeny laughs] I'm just kidding [laughs]. Do you do textiles? So you do like a soda ash wash. And then you like cover it with ice on like a cookie tray, or a baking sheet or something where the water can melt over a bin, because it's gonna get filled with dye. So like Tupperware or something like that. And then you cover it with like the powdered procion. I don't know how to say it dye. And you let it sit for 24 hours. And then it like the ice dye is different. Because like when you have the powdered dye, like I used teal and pink. But like my sweatshirt has like purple and pink and green. And like kind of a black color. And so yeah, so ice dye is very hot. And you've also seen a lot of tie dye probably in the world of like, dresses at Target. So, just saying ice dye that's what's popping, for me besides Marvel, which we already talked about. [Haeny laughs]

Nathan 

And I actually what I heard you say is what's poppin is your Instagram feed. [laughter]

Lalitha 

That's right, that's right.

Cassie 

My Instagram.

Nathan 

[indistinct] in there as well. Put that in the show notes.

Cassie 

Thank you very much. Show notes.

Haeny 

Follow Cassie.

Lalitha 

I also came prepared. And I'm going to give two really quick ones. One is going to go back to, I'm gonna; I'm doubling down, tripling down on my Instagram reels obsession. And I will say one thing specifically, I have gotten really obsessed with, actually two things. One is food reels where people give you a 60 second overview of how to make like this elaborate cake. I've tried none of them, but I think they're all amazing looking. [Haeny laughs] And then the second thing is like when people, people are post, post, posting the harmony parts of songs, and then other people are doing the melody [Nathan: [indistinct] cool] and they're posting those. I think they're amazing. So that's one. And then my second one is The Great British Pottery Throwdown.

Nathan 

Woah.

Lalitha 

Just recently was taught that this was a thing. There's a crying judge. [Nathan laughs] There is [laughs] a lot of interesting metaphors. [Haeny laughs] There is a lot of, a lot that I didn't know about pottery, which, you know, really started out at zero. And then I recently learned this technique of Raku, which apparently is fire, something. Iced firing, ice firing [Nathan whispers: ice firing] or something. Anyway, those are my poppins.

Haeny 

Looks like we're all gonna get pottery...

Lalitha 

Instagram wheels and I'm not gonna make anything. [Haeny laughs, indistinct long list of] [Nathan: awww] I'm just gonna I can send you my favorite episodes. [Haeny, Nathan and Lalitha laugh] Yeah, there you go. That's my poppin.

Chris, how 'bout you?

Chris 

Well, so I did not come prepared. I think, which is in, totally in character for me. I think like it, like it, I guess one of the things I've noticed is like I love to just start random things. And like, I love the beginning of some something. And then after I kind of like, get a sense of like how it works, I'm like, okay, cool, what's the next? What's the next thing, and so I just accumulate random, random practices. So I've been, I don't know, like, I decided I was gonna learn to play the guitar, like sleight of hand; we're doing like permaculture in our yard, like all these things. And, and I also, but I think one of the things that, that I learned, cuz I've been doing this my entire life; it's, it's chronic. [laughter] And probably, probably lethal at some point. But one of the things I learned over the last year, though, it's like what like, is that there's something about it as a practice that I find very interesting. So I've been sort of having a meta exploration of these things, which has been really kind of interesting, like why like, how do I approach it? Why am I interested in it? Like how do I, how do I get deep into something. I love kind of diving in the deep end and trying to like sort of construct an understanding of something. And that I think has brought me kind of full circle back to, back to my movement practices. So I worked as a Feldenkrais practitioner, movement education. And, and so I've been just sort of re-exploring that. Like having had some, some time to let it kind of sit and percolate. And it's been really interesting how coming back to it, like my understanding of the the sort of workings of it, and the practice of it has really changed. So I guess it kind of comes back also to what I was saying about sort of micro, like, like micro play and these sort of tiny little expressions. I think, like I've been really interested in just like diving into the subtleties of things.

Lalitha 

I like that [indistinct]

Chris 

Subtlety is poppin. Subtlety is poppin.

Nathan 

Subtlety is poppin.

Lalitha 

Subtelty is poppin.

Haeny 

Oh yeah.

Chris 

Yeah.

Nathan 

Haeny, what's poppin for you?

Haeny 

I did not come prepared. But as I'm looking at Chris and Tran, I'm going to just mention something that they got me into, which is in and of itself on Hulu, which I'm not even going to say that much about it. It's amazing. It is literally, I mean, it's just about being seen. And it's also about sleight of hand. It's also about magic. It's also about like who we are identity, all of the good things, and I watched it twice.

Nathan 

Wow.

Haeny 

I recommend the first time you just watch it. Second time, you should take notes.

Nathan 

It an- what's it called?

Lalitha 

What is it?

Nathan 

In and of Itself. Nathan, what's poppin for you?

Well-

Haeny 

Is it a video video game? [Haeny and Lalitha laugh]

Cassie 

Lightsabers, Star Wars

Nathan 

Let me tell you what's poppin. [mechanical whirring] Star Wars is poppin. That's what this podcast is all about. I just want to say Star Wars [lightsaber noise] is still poppin. And, you know, I know that a lot of people have reacted to the, the newest trilogy of movies that came out over the past few years. They're like, [complaining voice]. Oh, I don't know, it's not very good [complaining voice]. [Haeny laughs] Or, [complaining voice] oh I kind of like it, but only some of them. [back to normal voice] And, you know, I got in an argument with my friend the other day because he was like, well, let's be honest. You know, the last one was terrible. And you know, it's probably the worst one there's ever been. And I was just like, What are you talking about? What are you talking about? It is so delightful. Is it great? Is it the one of the best films you've ever seen? No. No one ever claimed it would be [Lalitha, Nathan and Haeny laugh]. But is it delightful? Yes, it's absolutely delightful. Star Wars is delightful, it is still popping. And I want to recommend in the spirit of multimodality here, which is a thing [Lalitha: woohoo] that we talk about a fair amount in this group. I want to recommend an article. This is by the author, Chuck Wendig, who actually wrote some of some Star Wars novels in between, you know, over the years, series, movies. And he has an article that, after the the last movie was called the Rise of Skywalker, and people saw it and they were like, ugh, that, is that the one? And I saw it and I was like, Well, I mean, it was fun. Right?

Lalitha 

Mmmhmm.

Nathan 

Didn't we have fun? There was like lightsabers, [Haeny laughing] there was like lightning there was like, you know-

Lalitha 

There was Luke.

Nathan 

-in the Millennium Falcon and all that stuff. There was, that was fun. And he wrote this great article that I thought really just kind of captured my feeling. And he called it The Rise of Skywalker and how Star Wars is junk. And, you know, I won't spoil the entire we'll put the URL on the website. But, but basically, the premise is that, like, junk is kind of, it's not trash, but it's, and it's not really good for you. But it still can be a lot of fun, it can still be delicious.

Lalitha 

I like that.

Nathan 

It can still, you know, be something that we want to engage in and partake in. And we don't have to pretend that it's somehow another high art. [Lalitha: mmhmm] We can we can enjoy it. We can love it. We can play with it. And so Star Wars, you know, on its worst day, well, [Cassie: still poppin] maybe not. There's some, there's some really bad days [laughter], so maybe that's not poppin. But I think, I think the most recent, I think Star Wars is still poppin. And that's that's what I'm gonna say.

Haeny 

Alright well,

Lalitha 

Alright.

Haeny 

We are way over time. Thank you so much to Chris and Cassie and Lalitha for joining us today.

Lalitha 

Thanks for havin' us.

Haeny 

And for engaging in this conversation. That was a lot of fun. But a lot of questions and inquiries and thoughts to take with us. And thank you for the audience who came today and for being in the space with us, and listening, and all of that. We really appreciate you; really appreciate you taking the time out to come and join us today. So-

Nathan 

Yeah, thank you everybody. It's so fun to see you; so fun to hear from you. I hope you, hope you're enjoying the episodes and let us know if there's any suggested guests for next season, which we're hoping to start soon.

Haeny

Yeah.

Nathan

So.

Haeny 

Thank you everyone.

Nathan 

Alright everybody. Bye. [laughter]

Chris 

Thanks for playin'

Lalitha 

Thanks,

Nathan 

Gotta get my Chewbacca mask on. [Lalitha and Chris laugh]

[music fades in, fades up and then lower under intro]

Haeny 

Thanks to Jedi Masters, Cassie, Lalitha and Chris for joining us this week. This episode was edited by our resident and droids Jen Lee and Joe Riina-Ferrie. Thank you to Matt Vincent for designing our website and to Lucius Von Joo for curating resources and creating our episode pages.

Nathan 

This episode marks our last for season one. And while we may be escaping to a galaxy far, far away for a much needed summer break, just like the Star Wars movie sagas we'll be back soon and with more play and brilliant guests. Until then, tell your friends to subscribe, and may the Force be with you. Pop and Play is produced by Haeny Yoon, Lalitha Vasudevan, Joe Riina-Ferrie and myself, Nathan Holbert at Teachers College Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. For a transcript and to learn more visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leafeaters by Podington Bear used here under a Creative Commons Attribution non commercial license. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

[music fades out]